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United Future
Since: Aug 2007
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Fathers undervalued under Labour - Turner

Fathers’ Day is the time for families and the community to recognise and celebrate fantastic fathers throughout New Zealand, but is also a time to acknowledge that fathers need to be better supported, according to UnitedFuture family spokesperson, Judy Turner.

“First and foremost, it’s fantastic to recognise the tremendous value of all the great fathers in this country. The next thing we need to do is pressure the Government to better support those fathers who need it,” says Mrs Turner.

“The statistic reminding us that fathers get seven fewer Fathers Days due to dying earlier and becoming fathers later is food for thought. The health outcomes for men in this country are far below that of our women – yet the Government spends far less money spent on them.

“The Family Court is another area where thousands of willing and loving fathers are still being systematically removed from maintaining a caring role with their children, yet the Government refuses to address the issue.
... Read the full text of this article.

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carol bennett
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 56

Fathers day can be a sad day for many dads as is Christmas day.Many of these 'walking wallet' dads will sadly find out that there is not much cash left over for buying presents for their children anymore after this government has stripped them of just about everything that they possess.

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Rebecca Stoop
Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 5

werfwerg

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Rebecca Stoop
Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 5

wergerger

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carol bennett
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 56

If the IRD didn't strip an over the top amount of money from fathers in the form of a child support tax, fathers would once again be able to support their children and add value to this country and to their children's lives.But when this government leaves many of them in poverty with not even the money left over from their wages for a roof over their heads,just what do you suggest they do?
And what about the not so great mothers too.There are many of them around who are not even sure who the fathers of their children are and toss a coin to decide who the latest free sperm donor was.

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carol bennett
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 56

When does the leader of United Future,the minister of inland revenue,intend doing something about the unfairness of the child support act?
As it stands now,many men are paying as much as 70 cents in the dollar on taxes(including child support tax)
Is it not a wonder that many skilled workers are leaving the work force.
A fairer system of child support could be easily implemented by both parents with the aid of a mediator if necessary,through drawing up private contracts which both parents would have to agree on.And those contracts would not be allowed to be broken by either parent.Because what is happening now is when there is a private agreement in place,a couple of years down the track,women are running off to the IRD when their ex husband's become involved with another woman.
Child support is becoming nothing but an ex wife's revenge with children being used for financial gains.

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Michael Martin
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 15

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Prof. Steven Baskerville has an excellent analysis of this problem in the latest edition of Chroniclesmagazine on-line:

The Failure of "Family Policy"

Some relevant excerpts:

The ongoing sexual revolution is now codified in government policies that do more than discourage family formation: They empower officials to dissolve families and offer generous rewards for doing so. ...

Today, the most direct threat to the family is not homosexuality, pornography, popular culture, euthanasia, cloning, or abortion. It is the elephant that barged into America's living rooms almost four decades ago: As Michael McManus of Marriage Savers writes, "Divorce is a far more grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge by gays." While this, too, began as a lifestyle option, it quickly translated into highly destructive policies.

Beginning in the 1970's, America quietly embarked on the boldest social experiment in her history. With no public discussion of the possible consequences, laws were enacted in virtually every jurisdiction that ended marriage as a legal contract and precluded couples from creating binding agreements to rear children. Regardless of the terms on which a marriage is entered, government officials can now, at the request of one spouse, simply dissolve it over the objection of the other and with no penalty to the moving party. As far as the federal and state governments are concerned, all couples are cohabiting.

The situation in NZ is as bad, if not worse, under Labour's policies. The bravest, gutsiest thing UF could possibly do, would be to tackle this thing head-on, explain to the public just how destructive these policies are, and (above all) to show the direct, provably causal relationship between the enforced breakup of families by the State and the out-of-control, ever spiraling rates of child abuse and murder in this and other Anglophone countries (such as my native USA).

So far, UF has been tinkering around the edges of other parties policies in this arena. It is time for a true Center party to show leadership, with soundly formulated policies based upon empirical evidence. Perhaps Dr. Baskerville's article can be of assistance.

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carol bennett
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 56

I don't believe that United Future has the guts to speak out against these policies Michael.I know Judy Turner is concerned,but she can't do it on her own.She needs help from her leader but I think he's too afraid of upsetting the women's groups.And why fix something that is not broken when this government is gaining so much from it.
The ever increasing rate of suicide in our young and middle aged men will one day tell a different story.

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carol bennett
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 56

Today is Valentines day.I picked a red rose for my husband from our garden.He'd been awake since 2am with a phone call from the UK to tell him that his father had died.Because the child support act has reduced him to poverty,he won't be able to attend his father's funeral.
His ex wife has told him repeatedly that he was just a free sperm donor.
She seems to have become quite well off from it though,aided by a system that is hell bent on destroying fathers and families.
Financially she is wealthy but spiritually she will always be poor.

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Brian Ward
Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 10

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From a cultural point of view NZ is of western cultural heritage but striving for more equality.

Most families have been subject to the 'strict father model' of child rearing and this is endemic in our culture. I insert a paper below for reference.

Our systems of governance in this regard try to provide equality by patching up a problem, which inevitably ends up unjust to one or another.

Fathers (and mothers, and others) need to understand the 'nurturant parent model' of child rearing before changes will occur.




Parenting Styles, and their Impact on Children:
Humiliation, Abuse and Neglect

Lindner, Evelin Gerda (2005). Parenting Styles, and their Impact on Children: Humiliation, Abuse and Neglect. In Sahil, 14 (32, April-June), 9

Evelin Gerda Lindner, MD, PhD, PhD (Dr psychol, Dr med)
Social scientist
Founder of Human Dignity and Humiliation Studies (www.humiliationstudies.org)
and affiliated to
the University of Oslo, Department of Psychology (http://folk.uio.no/evelinl/),
to the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in Trondheim, Department of Psychology,
the Maison des Sciences de l'Homme, Paris,
and in cooperation with
the Columbia University Conflict Resolution Network, New York

February 2005

For thousands of years, almost everywhere on the globe, humankind believed in hierarchically ranking human value. Almost everybody thought that some people were born as higher beings and others as lower beings. This was called the order of natureor divine order The cradle of democracy, the Greek city state of about 2,000 years ago - just to give you one example out of many - was adamant that women and slaves, per definition, had no voice.
Any pain or suffering that those had to endure who had their place somewhere at the bottom of the pyramid of power was deemed to be necessary pain or prosocial humbling. Through thousands of years, underlings sufferings were regarded as goodfor them and fruitfulfor the health of society as a whole. Beating underlings, for example, was usually regarded not as abuse, but as legitimate means to remindthem of their dueplace. Vaccinations or surgical operation, albeit painful, are generally accepted as good treatmentfor patients; this is a positive view of pain that everybody sympathizes with. Similarly, for millennia, underlings pain was seen as good treatmentfor underlings and the health of society altogether.

Strict Father Model

Parents typically were central to reproducing obedient underlings. Alice Miller (1983), spelled out how, in the period that lead up to the two World Wars, leading pedagogues of the time regarded breaking the will of the child as essential for childrearing. Lakoff and Johnson (1999) describe the underlying framework with what they call the Strict Father model (as opposed to the Nurturant Parent model):

The father has authority to determine the policy that will govern the family. Because of his moral authority, his commands are to be obeyed. He teaches his children right from wrong by setting strict rules for their behavior and by setting a moral example in his own life. He enforces these moral rules by reward and punishment. The father also gains his childrens cooperation by showing love and by appreciating them when they obey the rules. But children must not be coddled, lest they become spoiled. A spoiled child lacks the appropriate moral values and lacks the moral strength and discipline necessary for living independently and meeting lifes challenges. The mother has day-to-day responsibility for the care of the household, raising the children; and upholding the fathers authority. Children must respect and obey their parents, because of the parents moral authority. Through their obedience they learn the discipline and self-reliance that is necessary to meet lifes challenges. This self-discipline develops in them strong moral character. Love and nurturance are a vital part of family life, but they should never outweigh parental authority, which is itself an expression of love and nurturance - tough love. As children mature, the virtues of respect for moral authority, self-reliance, and self-discipline allow them to incorporate their fathers moral values. In this way they incorporate their fathers moral authority they become self-governing and self-legislating (Lakoff & Johnson (1999), pp. 313-314).

The result is described by Lakoff and Johnson as follows,
Evidence from three areas of psychological research attachment theory, socialization theory, and family violence studies shows that the Strict Father model tends to produce children who are dependent on the authority of others, cannot chart their own moral course very well, have less of a conscience, are less respectful of others, and have no greater ability to resist temptations (Lakoff & Johnson (1999), p. 327).

Thus, the Strict Father model seems to produce what Theodor Adorno called the authoritarian personality whose principal characteristic is obedience and preparedness to blindly following orders, irrespective of their moral contents (Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswick, Levinson, & Sanford (1950)).

Nurturant Parent Model
Around 300 - 250 years ago, the Human Rights revolution began to undermine the belief that it is natures orderto have lower and higher beings. In 1757, a new meaning of the word humiliation emerged. Up to 1757 the verb to humiliate meant nothing worse than to lower or to humble, or to show underlings their legitimate lowly place, without any connotation that this may also signify an illegitimate violation. This we learn from the Oxford English Dictionary with regard to the English language. I quote from Miller (1993), who informs us that the earliest recorded use of to humiliate meaning to mortify or to lower or to depress the dignity or self-respect of someone does not occur until 1757.
Article 1 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights stipulates that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.This declaration represents a revolution insofar as it upsets the hierarchical ranking of human worthiness that was in place for millennia and calls for a new order, namely the order of equal dignity for all. In this new order it is regarded illegitimate to put down people; putting down people, beating and punishing them cruelly, is no longer labeled as prosocial humblingbut as abusive antisocial humiliation. As might be expected, this revolution has consequences also for parenting.
Lakoff and Johnson allude to this when they describe the Nurturant Parent model of rearing children. This model describes a parenting style that abides by the new Human Rights ideals. What formerly was regarded as goodfor children, turns into abuse and neglect in the new nurturant framework.
Many parents fear that being nurturant means being lenient and permissive. Yet, nurturant parenting has nothing to do with leniency. It combines firmness with respect for equal dignity. Lakoff and Johnson write, Nurturant Parent morality is not, in itself, overly permissive. Just as letting children do whatever they want is not good for them, so helping other people to do whatever they please is likewise not proper nurturance. There are limits to what other people should be allowed to do, and genuine nurturance involves setting boundaries and expecting others to act responsibly(Lakoff & Johnson (1999), p. 316).
The point with the Nurturing Parent model is that lessonsare no longer taught by putting down children. Breakingchildren is no longer permissible. Lessonsare now to be taught with firm love and humility, no longer by applying humiliation.
To summarize, we all, parents included, live in the midst of a historic transition from concepts of ranked human worthiness to visions of equal dignity for all. We all are embedded in some way or another within this transition, either by welcoming it or resisting it, and in all cases by being confused by it. It is a difficult transition even for the most fervent human rights enthusiast because it is easy to lose orientation.
We lose orientation not least because old recipes still sound so right. For example, is it so bad to sometimes hit a child? Have we not all survived such treatment? And was it not to our own good? And what about the treatment of women? Should not women be careful not to lose their femininity[= submissiveness as lower beings]? Many such questions confuse our minds in times of transition.
What we have not yet developed are new proverbs and new sayings that sound equally rightas the old ones. The new world is not yet there while the old world disappears. We need to develop new language, new proverbs and sentences that highlight that lessonsare no longer to be taught by humiliation, but with love and humility.

Reference List

Adorno, Theodor W., Frenkel-Brunswick, Else, Levinson, Daniel J., & Sanford, R. Nevitt (1950). The authoritarian personality. (First ed.). New York, NY: Harper.
Lakoff, George & Johnson, Mark (1999). Philosophy in the flesh: The embodied mind and its challenge to western thought. New York, NY: Basic Books.
Miller, Alice (1983). For your own good: Hidden cruelty in child-rearing and the roots of violence. London: Virago Press, see the afterword also on http://members.xoom.com/childhistory/victim.htm, retrieved May 22, 2000.
Miller, William Ian (1993). Humiliation and other essays on honor, social discomfort, and violence. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.

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Michael Martin
Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 15

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Hi, Brian;

I completely agree with your endorsement of "empathic parenting." My only critique is with what I consider a false dichotomy between patriarchal families and nurturant parenting. I don't believe the two are as opposed as you think.

I worship and serve with the local Serbian Orthodox Church here in Auckland. As such, I am very close to many Russian, Serbian and Lebanese (Arab Christian) families. All of these families are patriarchal, and all of them are characterized by an atmosphere of love, nurture and warmth which are, for the most part, missing in English families.

For one thing, fathers (indeed, men in general) in Orthodox cultures are much more physically affectionate toward one another and their children than their English counterparts. You may be aware of the East European and eastern Mediterranean custom of men greeting one another with kisses on the cheeks. in English societies, this has been traditionally seen as a sign of effeminacy. Men in Orthodox cultures are not so insecure about these matters.

Another factor which must, unavoidably, be considered, is the religious basis of Orthodox versus English societies. Much of the harshess and inhumanity of the childrearing practices of past generations in the Anglosphere, is a direct result of Calvinist Puritanism. First of all, Calvin taught that all children are demonic and evil (not just fallen, mind you, but evil) and that the devil had to be "beaten out of" children. Also, the five points of Calvin (especially predestination) fostered "objectification" (i.e., de-humanization) of those not considered "Elect" (which also made Anglo-American and South African racism so particularly brutal in the past). Finally, the nearly Gnostic contempt for matter and the created world, led to a general squeamishness about anything natural, spontaneous and physical.

Orthodox societies have none of these attitudes. Over there, the main cause of child abuse is alcoholism and/or economic stress, not inhuman doctrines.

So, until social studies start taking these factors into account, they will come to well-intended but misleading conclusions.

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Brian Ward
Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 10

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Martin, may I reply to your post as follows with my comments underneath each paragraph.

I completely agree with your endorsement of "empathic parenting." My only critique is with what I consider a false dichotomy between patriarchal families and nurturant parenting. I don't believe the two are as opposed as you think.

For me nurturant parenting is nurturing my children's 'freedom of conscience' which means permitting them to grow as totally independant persons. My only stipulation on them is that they respect the dignity of all other people.

I worship and serve with the local Serbian Orthodox Church here in Auckland. As such, I am very close to many Russian, Serbian and Lebanese (Arab Christian) families. All of these families are patriarchal, and all of them are characterized by an atmosphere of love, nurture and warmth which are, for the most part, missing in English families.

I do not follow any traditional religion but I take time to learn and understand all religions and beliefs as this is important to ensure I can understand others and respect them. I am interested in what partiarchy means in the various religions.

In my family we hold a deep respect for each other as we do everyone. Whilst we debate and openly question and assert our position, we negotiate and compromise. I encourage my children to hold firm to their feelings and work things out through open discussion.

For one thing, fathers (indeed, men in general) in Orthodox cultures are much more physically affectionate toward one another and their children than their English counterparts. You may be aware of the East European and eastern Mediterranean custom of men greeting one another with kisses on the cheeks. in English societies, this has been traditionally seen as a sign of effeminacy. Men in Orthodox cultures are not so insecure about these matters.

I agree that NZ men are less emotional and outgoing than their European counterparts. I am not insecure in being reserved, it is just my cultural ubringing.

Another factor which must, unavoidably, be considered, is the religious basis of Orthodox versus English societies. Much of the harshess and inhumanity of the childrearing practices of past generations in the Anglosphere, is a direct result of Calvinist Puritanism. First of all, Calvin taught that all children are demonic and evil (not just fallen, mind you, but evil) and that the devil had to be "beaten out of" children. Also, the five points of Calvin (especially predestination) fostered "objectification" (i.e., de-humanization) of those not considered "Elect" (which also made Anglo-American and South African racism so particularly brutal in the past). Finally, the nearly Gnostic contempt for matter and the created world, led to a general squeamishness about anything natural, spontaneous and physical.

I have always thought that children are innocent at birth and their unique creative and peaceful nature needs to be nurtured. This is done through nurturing their self belief.

Orthodox societies have none of these attitudes. Over there, the main cause of child abuse is alcoholism and/or economic stress, not inhuman doctrines.

To me economic stress is inhuman and this is because the economic system has come about from an historical lack of respect for equal dignity resulting in an imbalanced distribution of wealth, authority and resources. Alcoholism and many other anti-social 'afflictions' stem from individuals having been denied of freedom of creative expression and thought.

So, until social studies start taking these factors into account, they will come to well-intended but misleading conclusions.

I trust that, through dialogue, we can all become more understanding and respect each others thoughts and beliefs.

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